Toolbelt Manhaters - A MetaFilter Mystery

Sometimes you have to reinvent the wheel because it turns out it never got invented in the first place.  An object lesson over on these two MetaTalk  threads of MetaFilter, about which I wrote an LRB article  recently.  The subject is whether or not men dominate the space and how they do it.  I got involved reading a conversation started by a post about a flasher.  Women were talking about their experiences.  Very rare to see so many women involved in the comments.  Suddenly the thread wasn't there any more.  The moderators had deemed it a bad post, which always overrides a good discussion.  So I was told when I set up another post on the same topic which was deleted because it was 'making a point' and that isn't what MetaFilter was about either.

My mistake.  I didn't remember that you have to accept the rules of a place when it isn't collectively run.  But the complaint threads developed, and women began to say how uncomfortable they felt with the 'boyzone' talk, and some of the men fought back with talk of zealots, how women always make victims of themselves instead of getting on the right wavelength...oh god, all that stuff, decades and decades gone by, and there it all is.  Someone suggested I was having a fit of the vapours (and the thread is headlined 'Hysterics') and when I objected was told that it was a joke, ironic, dontcha get it. 

There are a handful of men who are agreeing that the ethos is bad, and fighting their corner, insisting that women claiming they find it hard to participate ought to be listened to.  It's a proper discussion, dismal in places, but as clear a description of how not very much has changed since the Seventies as can be got.  The discussion that eventually is being had is the upside of MetaFilter, just as, it seems to me, the privileging of 'best of the web' posts over debate is the downside.

Worth looking, if you're feeling strong.  But I think I've done with the site.  I'm 60 years old, and it's too tiring (actually shocking) still to be told that a discussion by women about their experiences of being flashed is 

like manna from Heaven for the toolbelt manhaters that roam Metafilter with a fried chicken leg in one hand and Camila Paglia's panties in the other. More succinctly, it massages their prejudices.

Comments

[LobsterMitten]

I was involved with some of those discussions on Metafilter. The discussions were, it seems to me, spectacularly productive by the end. There was a ton of noise along the way (people being jerks, like "toolbelt manhaters", or taking things too personally, etc), especially at the beginning of each thread.

There's a strong element of posturing and shouting on Metatalk especially, and excitement when there's a smell of blood in the water (when someone starts saying things like "You know, Hitler suppressed dissent too! If my ideas are too radical for you, then fine - you won't have me to kick around anymore!" etc). It's adolescent in certain ways -- there's a thirst for "drama", combined with scorn for those who are dramatic; there's a coltish impulse to stand out with a witty mean-spirited remark. There's a class of internet character called "trolls" whose thills come from saying vicious things solely to get a rise out of people. (Hence the expression "don't feed the troll" -- the only defense against a troll is to completely ignore him, since all he wants is attention.)

So it's rare that the discussions turn into quite deep and interesting ones where people agree to try to interpret one another charitably and otherwise follow rules of good discourse, as those "boyzone" discussions did, eventually. There are quite a few adults there of balanced mental state who are capable of setting aside the adolescent stuff and having a really high-quality discussion. There's a lot of good to be had there - especially at the Ask part of the site. But it definitely requires putting up with some bozos.

[onlyconnect]

For what it's worth, the person who did make that toolbelt manhater comment (four panels) wound up getting a time out at MetaFilter; his account has been disabled. Also, the thread prompted a long discussion about boyzones and sexism and a few changes at Metafilter to facilitate alerting the moderators there about offensive remarks. Alot of women spoke up in the multiple threads devoted to the issue and a bunch of men also said their minds have been changed on the subject. Most all of this discussion and the changes happened over the Thanksgiving holiday, with Matt, Jess and Josh taking time from their holidays to help members hash out a new policy, which can't have been easy for them and frankly really said alot to me.

As a woman who posts at Metafilter, these threads have actually been really helpful for me. So fwiw, thanks for getting the discussion started.

[Steven Augustine]

The fascist clique is the most basic and venerable social unit. It forms wherever it can, and very quickly. One used to have to leave home (i.e., go to work or school or whatever hangout) in order to participate. And now that one can do so at home, anonymously and in one's underwear...

[Zarah Thackeray-Smith]

I signed up at mefi 7 yrs ago when I was 14 years old and it's been a fine education on why even the smarter, apparently more civilized, parts of the internet are still hostile to anything that's not white male, and that if you have anything to contribute to the world that it should be done in real life, not online.

The bozos at mefi who make it inhospitable to others are there all.the.time. They spend a good 4-8 hours a day (at least!) trolling the place, commandeering it and forcing it to maintain the shape of their own image. No matter the good intentions of Matt & Jessamyn, the members whose lives revolve around the place will continue to be the ones in charge.

You are not too old to deal with their tiring bs, you are too smart, too interesting, and too useful to waste your time on them.

[Wayne]

Metafilter is not a debating site and never has been. It's a collaborative web filter with a strong culture and ethos which must be learned in order to properly participate. This ethos is the backbone of what makes the site a success as compared to the rather vile sewers or tediously one-sided echo chambers that many more debate-oriented sites end up becoming.

It is a great shame that you are leaving so soon as a result of confusing your failure to learn the ethos and culture of the site with your quite justified anger over a particular thread gone bad in which people with viewpoints quite different from your own stated those views in a robust way. I'm afraid that that happens online, even on Mefi. The nature of the debate is perhaps particularly high there precisely because there is a wide enough spread of opinion on the site that hardly anyone does not hold some opinion that someone else does not find shocking. It is good to be reminded of the broad spread of opinion, especially if it is possible to discuss that in a civilised way, and the fact that this is largely the case is one of the great strengths of Metafilter.

If you do not return, you will be missed, and I hope you do return in time. It is not a debating site, yet at the same time if there is a higher standard of discourse to be found in any online community, I have yet to discover it.

[adam]

I've been lurking on metafilter for a good while, and whenever I'm tempted to register, I never have to look far for a reminder as to why I haven't yet.

It is as you say. I'm not 60, I'm 30, but I also don't think the return on this stuff is worth the emotional investment.

Metafilter is worth a look, though, Pohaginapete. Metatalk itself is quite interesting; go there and start reading any of the 100+ comment threads. It is a fascinating microcosm of the best and worst of the internet. (Well, I suppose, in fairness, not the worst).

[Lesley]

I too enjoyed your piece in the LRB and I too find the turn MeFi has taken depressing. But what is the alternative? Probably not www.Jezebel.com .

[Pohanginapete]

Seems to me that whoever was responsible for that remark (about the "toolbelt manhaters") was massaging a part of his anatomy other than just his prejudices.

I know nothing about Metafilter, and think now I won't bother investigating.

[dan visel]

That's too bad - I thought your LRB piece on how Metafilter worked was one of the best analyses I'd seen on how discussion on the web works & doesn't work & made me moderately hopeful for the Internet.